2024 RTO Roundtable Series: Part 3 - with Lauren Hollows and Maree Thorne - Standard 1.3 to 1.4 All about Assessment

Welcome to Part 3 of the 2024 RTO Roundtable Series, focusing on the journey from Standard 1.3 to 1.4, with a keen eye on all things assessment. Lauren Hollows of Aniwaya Education Services joins forces with Maree Thorne from Compliance Assist, bringing their expertise to the forefront of this pivotal discussion. If you're catching up, we recommend revisiting the previous episodes for a comprehensive understanding, as this session builds upon earlier dialogues.

This episode delves deep into the evolving regulatory landscape and what it spells for RTOs with the introduction of the new standards, set to reshape practices in 2025. Angela Connell-Richards opens the conversation by highlighting the legislated shift towards ASQA's more educational and supportive role, focusing on the "fit and proper person" requirements and the eagerly awaited guidance through ASQA's user guides and training provisions.

Maree brings to light the challenges of resource allocation and ASQA's capabilities, pondering over the fine line between enforcing compliance and fostering development within the sector. The discussion takes a turn towards the broader implications of regulatory changes, emphasizing the significance of early preparation and the integration of new technologies such as AI and ChatGPT in the compliance landscape.

The trio also engages in a thought-provoking discussion on the potential dichotomy between ASQA's educational aspirations and governmental directives, contemplating the future trajectory of RTO regulation and the impact on the sector. The conversation underscores the importance of proactive engagement with professional development resources and strategic planning in anticipation of the incoming standards.

As the episode draws to a close, Angela and Maree share insights into their initiatives designed to support RTOs through these transformative times, advocating for a holistic approach to management that harmonizes compliance with organizational sustainability.

Part 3 of the 2024 RTO Roundtable Series is an essential listen for anyone within the vocational education and training sector, offering expert guidance and strategic insights for navigating the forthcoming standards. Join us for a rich exploration of the assessment landscape and prepare your RTO for the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead.

Transcript

Lauren Hollows: 0:01

Hey guys, this is Lauren Hollows, and we are here for part three of our series on the new assessment as part of our roundtable series, lucky enough to be here with Maree from Compliance Assist and Angela from Vivacity, and we've had some awesome conversations so far. They will be linked somewhere in the YouTube screen so you can feel free. Please do actually go and click and watch those videos beforehand, because there's a lot of stuff that we're probably going to be referring back to when we get into this next topic. And the last thing that you said, Angela, was talking about the interpretation of the regulators. It was something that Marie and I were discussing earlier on today. Was that? You know? Obviously you know we were at the last VELG session ASQA. had a booth there. It was very relational, I think.

Lauren Hollows: 0:47

You and I had several conversations with so many different representatives from ASQA, which was incredible, and ASQA really has focused on building a much more relational approach to regulation, to working with RTOs, to providing a lot more education materials, and yet what we've also seen in the last couple of months is like the Minister of Education coming out consistently referring to dodgy RTOs. You know there's definitely been a crackdown within CRICOS sector, we're seeing up to 80% visa refusals for specific countries. So there feels like to me, in the air there's quite a big tension of, like an ASQA that really wants to continue to work with RTOs and yet a government messaging that is coming across as to like ASQA needs to have more team. You know, we need to be regulating more aggressively, and it feels like these two things are quite, you know, they're not synergistic in their approaches. So what I hear from government versus what I hear from PASQA, who obviously is government, but, like my conversations and the messaging between those two are quite different. We're now coming into, we're going to be coming into 2025 with this brand new set of standards. As you've mentioned, Angela, there's a lot of other bits and pieces coming into this situation as well.

Lauren Hollows: 2:19

I'm interested to see what your guys' thoughts are on more broadly. I guess I mean, assessment has always been the cornerstone of what gets audited, performance assessed, um, I'm interested to see like what, what are your thoughts on? What approach is going to happen now? And, you know, is Asper going to kind of be forced into like having more teeth? Are we going to see a return to some of those more challenging days? Or, you know, are they going to be able to, you know, persevere and push through, or is potentially we're going to, you know, see the end of the Labour government and with the return of, like a Liberal government, hopefully maybe return to a little bit more of like that? You know supporting that collegial relationship and you know pros and cons of that. I'd be really interested to hear your thoughts on that sort of whole environment.

Angela Connell-Richards: 3:14

Well, to start with, ASQAs change was due regulatory change in the VET and the Regulators regulations where they were told they have to educate RTOs and they have to be friendly. They have to be useful. So thankfully that did come about. So it's in legislation that ASQA have to provide guidance. They have to provide a user guide. Also, what was added to the legislation was that they have to provide training as well. So it will be very interesting to see how that will come about and how it will be implemented. So it is their responsibility to do a user's guide which they're going to be writing in the second half of the year and that's why we're not it's not being officially released. We don't officially have to comply until the 1st of January because ASQA need that time to be able to write the user's guide. So that that is very interesting with. Well, how we, how are ASQA going to then? Well, hopefully they don't go back to where they were before, because it was just they were sweeping out all of the good RTOs with the bad RTOs, and I think you know, in any industry sector we're always going to have dodgy providers. It doesn't matter whether it's the training industry or any other industry sector, but it will be very interesting with how this is going to change with the new fit and proper person requirements and that will certainly clean out a lot of those dodgy RTOs as well as dodgy consultants as well. So it will be very interesting how that will come about.

Angela Connell-Richards: 5:08

I haven't, like, when we go to audit with a client, we're now filling in fit and proper person forms, and what's going to happen with consultants? Are they going to have a ledger of fit and proper person forms from each consultant? Like, do we have to have everyone in the organisation? Like, we've got a team of nine, does everyone in the organisation need to complete it? Yeah, it will be very interesting to see how we'll be audited and I'll also be very interested to see what the user guide's going to look like in the future and will there be training? So it's in the legislation that they are required to provide training. What is that training going to look like and who will be able to access it? Will consultants be able to access it? Will it just be exclusive to RTOs? Who knows? Watch this space. What's your thoughts, Maree?

Maree Thorne: 6:00

Oh, you must have a much more effective crystal ball than I do I'm still. You know, yes, there's a lot of reform going on. I think, though, at the end of the day, for me it's going to come down to resourcing and what ASQA is going to have in terms of um. You know which, you know what they can actually do, um and, and you know, obviously, resourcing is connected to fees, you know, and the fees, you know, whatever um, and I think that there might be some hardship, you know, coming RTOs in in terms of if the little balance, if the level of audit picks out, you know that that's obviously got massive fees connected with it, but I think it's also going to come down to the capability ASQA has has um.

Maree Thorne: 6:48

So not just the resources and how they choose to use them, are they going to focus them on? You know this activity, the capability development activity, or the, you know, or the auditing capability activities or whatever, but have they got the capability and the right capability? You know there's been a lot of you know a lot of I don't know conversation around that in the past. As to you know there's been a lot of you know a lot of I don't know conversation around that in the past as to you know and you know the capability of auditors who've not got a training background, or you know, and sometimes that's a good thing, and sometimes it's not or they haven't, you know.

Maree Thorne: 7:27

so that whole question of capability, I think, though, it's also you, you know, and I'll pay devil's advocate here, I, I think there is still very much a role for Asquith to play in the in, in the um, weeding out, if you like and look, I don't like the word dodgy um, because I think sometimes there is a fine line between dodgy versus just not really capable yeah um you know, sorry, as Angela mentioned dodgy consultants paulie can pour.

Lauren Hollows: 8:06

I'm sure all of us have had people referred to us from another consultant going oh, these guys are in really big trouble. I'm like, literally, that's literally, that's your job. Like that's your job now. Why are you sending him to me now? Because you've stuffed him up. You know, we've all had those experiences. We've all been there, yeah, but I actually think that he's at an RTO, just gets led astray yeah.

Maree Thorne: 8:29

But I think there has to be. You know, yeah, but I think there has to be. You know, and we're talking in this session, you know, significantly started off with assessment and you know, I think I said earlier this assessment has always been an issue. The principle of assessment haven't really changed, you know. Okay, some units of competency have got a little bit more, you know, defined or prescribed about what assessment has to be or look like.

Maree Thorne: 8:53

But the principles of seven, the rules of evidence, the actual, you know, and there's been a lot of advice and guidance and everything else from the regulator around that, and yet I don't necessarily see that we have, as a system, really going to get on top of that. So it's kind of one of those things. But what do you do? You know, at what point do you draw the line and say you know I'm probably going to be the most hated person, but at what point do you draw the line and go? You know what? You're just not learning. Um, you know I'm sorry, but you know we're going to take away that license for you at the moment because you know you keep going through that red light.

Angela Connell-Richards: 9:35

How many times do we have to change the legislation, the wording, for you to get it?

Maree Thorne: 9:39

For you to get it, and so you know. But maybe that goes back to what is. Is the wording wrong that people can't get it? Are we being too? You know, I just wonder a new standard that's coming.

Maree Thorne: 9:54

Um, and, and I know myself, if I ask a question ASQA and it's usually because I really don't know the answer. I don't ask it because I'm trying to take up somebody's time. I, you know it's. I really want to know the answer. And the answer that I get back is see, standard such and such or whatever, as if I haven't been there. So sometimes I wonder, if you know, when I'm having a problem with a client, I'll go. Is it me like okay, how can I change my? I'm obviously saying the same thing over and over and over, but they're not getting it. How can I change how I'm communicating, or you know what I'm saying, or whatever, to to get the message across? And so I do think there has to come a point in life where it's kind of like you know, I'm putting a line through that and you know how many, how many chances do you get?

Angela Connell-Richards: 10:50

yeah, and, and it's that consistency that's not favourable, um you know here but it's also the consistency between the auditors. So and this is something that we've had issues with in the past is, uh, one auditor's interpretation is different than other auditors interpretation of what should be in the assessment tool and what is rules of evidence and principal assessment. Are they being educated? Are the ascot auditors being educated on that? How are they ensuring consistency? And that's always been my concern. Uh, back in 2019, we did a survey, uh, that went out to our mailing list and it was what is your problem? I'm redoing the survey now, uh, because things have changed, but in 2019, the biggest problem people had was that inconsistency with auditors and ASQA's, you know drawn-out process, and we seem to be back there again now.

Angela Connell-Richards: 11:45

Like the amount of people I've spoken to who are still waiting on applications that were submitted for an addition to scope six months ago or more and they still haven't heard anything from ASQA when you were saying, Maree, about resources and it's staff. Do they have the staff, the capability to be able to? Like? They don't have the capacity right now to deal with the amount of applications or re-registrations that are in right now. How are they going to cope with the change in legislation? Re-registrations that are in right now. How are they going to cope with the change in legislation? Mm-hmm yeah.

Lauren Hollows: 12:19

Yeah, I think it's definitely going to be an interesting space and I mean, as you said, going back to 1.3, the. So if RTOs are expected to test their tools and make adjustments, right, I guess the question is going to be and I think this is going to be the big challenge for our escrow is how do they like this year this is their year for testing these new standards, right? How is that testing going? Like you know, there's a couple of different ways that that testing is going to take place. A couple of different ways that that testing is going to take place.

Lauren Hollows: 12:53

I know that I've put forward a couple of RTOs where we've kind of gone okay, look, we'll do our re-reg under the new standards and see how we, you know, see how we, how we form up.

Lauren Hollows: 13:01

I think that there's very few RTOs that would feel comfortable going into like a process like that.

Lauren Hollows: 13:07

I've also got another RTO who's going to be doing their registration and they put their hand up to say, look, we're happy to go through registration under the new standards and allow, you know, allow ourselves to be the testing dummy. That's all been done in good faith, as I said, based off the back of PASCUA being really open, leaning into that educative role that they had, the presence that they had at VEL, the willingness to be able to talk to providers, and stuff like that. The interesting thing for me is going to be you've got a very different language coming out, which is reminiscent of the 2017, 2018 times, and I'm like I'm willing to put my neck out, based on the relationships of the people that I've had interactions with in escort at this point in time, the moment I start to see more of that language coming into the regulatory body itself. It's going like that I'll pull. I'll pull that straight away because I'll be like whoa like you know it's, it's just gonna.

Lauren Hollows: 14:13

I think it's going to be very interesting Like there's this huge opportunity with these new standards for ASQA to work as an educative body and take the best parts of these new standards and really run with them to improve quality in the industry. I think it will be really sad if the federal government turns and goes no, we actually need you to be the bad guy with the teeth you know being, you know saying how many were shut down this month. I think that's going to kill a lot of that motivation and that's for me, when these standards become, because of their level of prescription, become very problematic. Um, so I think that, added, like you know, in, asper stays with the attitude that it's got now and the culture that it's got now, I think these will be a great set of standards. I am very wary, having been through many rounds of like happy regulator mad regulator um, you know that're going to go into a MAD regulator perspective.

Lauren Hollows: 15:13

I'm going to be like, oh, these standards can be really problematic. We go to MAD regulator now.

Angela Connell-Richards: 15:21

And then if you stack on top of that the fact that there's lack of government funding in states at the moment, it's making it very tough on RTOs. Like there are going to be so many changes that are afoot and RTOs are going to need to adjust to ASQA. needs to adjust as well. And then my concern has been well, are there going to be some RTOs that are just going to go? This is all too hard, we don't have any funding. I just don't want to do this anymore.

Lauren Hollows: 15:57

And, interestingly, the federal government has released their own funding and I think that I mean that hasn't happened before, at least not in the way that they've released this funding. And so I look at that and I go well, is that because they're going to turn around and go. Well, if you guys want to harmonize funding, which we've been asking for 20 years, we're just going to offer the funding ourselves and that's innately going to harmonize it. Because guess what, we, if you don't want to play the game, you're just going to get less money. And so now, instead of larger RTOs having to deal with, let's say, seven funding models for seven different states, we're going to have to deal with eight different funding models for the seven states and territories. And now for federal. And then, of course, you've got like all of the you know federal incentives and you're asking you know like all of that sort of stuff as well, but the release of that new federal funding, I think but where is that federal funding going?

Angela Connell-Richards: 16:51

Is it going to TAFE?

Lauren Hollows: 16:54

Well, you know. Again, that is a question. But it's also interesting that, like in that federal funding and in the Smart and Skilled, the WA and the Queensland funding that's recently been released, you know, they are skilling non-accredited training. They are funding non-accredited training. They are funding micro-credentialling, they are funding skill sets. There is definitely a transition happening back to sort of the shorter, sharper training in addition to you know and less away from. You know full qualifications. You know three years of this, that and the other full qualifications. You know three years of this, that and the other. So I think the next two years are actually going to see quite a few different shifts.

Angela Connell-Richards: 17:40

It's massive, Like the next couple of years. You know that rollercoaster ride that you were talking about. We're going to be doing a couple of loops, yeah, and let's see what happens when we come out the other end.

Maree Thorne: 17:51

Yeah, and again, for me again RTOs guys.

Lauren Hollows: 17:55

You need to be watching programs like this. You need to be working with consultants. You need to be preparing. Please don't make an assumption that you know, oh, it's mostly same, the same. You know, look, unless you are like a top tier r RTO who is proactive, af about everything, please don't make an assumption that these are the same standards and you're going to be good. You actually do need to be planning.

Angela Connell-Richards: 18:20

You need to be thinking about training design.

Lauren Hollows: 18:22

You need to be thinking about learner requirements. You know you need to be rethinking that in context of your assessments, in context of upskilling your staff. You know, I think that yeah, workforce development plan.

Angela Connell-Richards: 18:39

There's going to be a lot of requirements around that. We've already started rewriting our policies and procedures. We've already started reviewing all of our documents. Like, we're not waiting until the standards are released, we're doing it now. The other thing I I deliver a monthly compliance webinar. What I'm doing now is I'm saying this is the current standards and this is what's to come, this is what's going to be changing, and then the second half of the year, I'm going to start delivering to the new standards. So, yes, so it like you. Yes, as said, you should be subscribing to these sort of podcasts and vodcasts and also looking at training and how, not just for the standards. We've also got AI and we've got chatGPT, like there's so many things that are changing. If you guys don't keep up, you're going to fall off the wagon.

Lauren Hollows: 19:30

Spending the money. Like spending money and time in advance is just going to save you so much more down the track. Like spend ten dollars up front is going to save you having to spend a hundred dollars fixing it in the in the rear end.

Lauren Hollows: 19:46

Um, I know that's something that you know, every consultant that I work with goes mate, if you just you know, if you'd spent 10 grand on getting that part right beforehand, you now, I now wouldn't have to be spending. You know, we now wouldn't have to be spending a hundred dollars, a hundred thousand, not just fixing this, but then also going back and working and the reputational damage that that's now going to cause. You know, and and is that you know and and this that you know, and the fact that you've got a black mark with the regulator and you know everything like that. So use this time guys, test the new standards like you guys test new standards, test your new policies. You know. Work with people like Angela, like marie, get feedback from them.

Lauren Hollows: 20:28

I know that both of you guys do put out a lot of resources, you know in the form of, you know training sessions and workshops, and you know just so many different ways that you guys can get access to this sort of a knowledge without it costing you an arm and a leg, and then be strategic about those points where you really do need that help. You know, um, yeah, thank you so much, guys. Um, just really quick hand over to both of you. Please let us know where we can find you um and what you've got coming up. You know in the next couple of months that we should be looking out for.

Angela Connell-Richards: 21:04

Yeah, okay, so you can find me on LinkedIn, Angela Connell Richards, and I'd love for you to follow me on there and connect with me, because I have a lot of content that I share on there. And then the other one we've got the RTO community. It's a Facebook group that you can join and I facilitate it, but it's actually got its own mind. It's got this huge community now that is in there. We've got over two and a half thousand people in there and there's all these offshoot chats uh, that people have got in there as well. A lot of you'll learn a lot and share. There's a lot of sharing that's happening in there, particularly, um, in the chats. And then we've got the RTO Job Board on Facebook as well.

Angela Connell-Richards: 21:52

So that's another group that one's got over 5,000 now, and it's trainers and assessors as well as RTO owners that are on there and we're sharing those groups. What are the changes that are happening? What's going to affect the trainers and assessors, what's going to affect the R and assessors? What's going to affect the RTO? So I definitely recommend that you get onto those. And then we've got a series of workshops that we're delivering this year, particularly on AI and the new legislation, so you can go to vivacity. com. au and learn more about our events.

Lauren Hollows: 22:27

Excellent Over to you, Marie.

Maree Thorne: 22:30

Oh, my goodness, just listening to Angela's list I'm obviously not doing anything. That is very, very comprehensive. Wow, complianceassist. com. a u also on LinkedIn. I'm sort of at the moment trying to transition myself away a little bit from compliance focused and sort of really try and encourage clients to move into the more you know the pillars of governance. You know the governance, the sustainability and the. You know and the and compliance as a sort of the three pillars.

Maree Thorne: 23:11

So trying to take a holistic view of an organisation because, you know, we sort of talked about some stuff in this session earlier sessions around you know some of the costs that may be involved to an RTO and so one of the things, one of the challenges, is trying to look at that Artia and go. You know balancing that business acumen with the academic rigour, with the ethical decision-making and, you know, looking at the organisation. You know I'm sort of working with a partner we're calling it sort of an organisational needs analysis, if you like. You know doing a lot of that work around looking at the organisation, the RTO, as a whole, you know, rather than as disparate and separate parts.

Angela Connell-Richards: 23:55

That would work well with the workforce development plan requirements as well. We do 8 Critical Drivers to RTO Success, which is a masterclass. We deliver once a month and it's all about getting that balance between clients and business success.

Maree Thorne: 24:09

Exactly, yeah, exactly month and it's all about getting that balance between clients and business success. Exactly, yeah, exactly, and it's so important. I think you know we talk very much about compliance and a lot of the PD it really is focused on compliance. But you know, as an organisation, you know you can put as much money as you like to it but you'll be out of business in no time.

Angela Connell-Richards: 24:26

So it's finding yeah, it's fine, it's kind of sustainable and financially viable at the end of the day, right, yeah, yeah well, guys.

Lauren Hollows: 24:35

Thank you very much. This has been an awesome series. I really appreciate your time, so I know you're both very, very busy women. Guys. You can find all of Angela Maree's contact, all of their socials and everything like that, in the links below. If you have enjoyed this, please do like, subscribe, comment all of those good things. Otherwise, thank you so much to Angela and Marie. My name is Lauren Hollows Aniwaya Education Services.